Curse

Shanaeri Rynale · Apr 14, 2008, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Shynaeri [DVDF], I know how you must feel, its exactly how I felt when they nerfed THK, until I came to realize I was then suffering from what I recently came to learn as e-peen, and to simply let others have fun and enjoy the game whichever way they can. And no, I don't think anet will ever make an area solely for leet players, this much is clearly obvious at this point. What I do miss, and what I'm sure most of the OP's protagonists miss, is that willingness to work together which has all but disappeared from most pugs, and the sense of a team accomplishment you got from working together. Also, Shynaeri, thanks again for the DVDF sponsored events at Shing Jea; you guys set a good community example.

Thanks for the compliements. Before I posted the OP I took a long look to see if it was e-peen etc, and I can honestly say it was'nt.

I want people to have fun, I want the whoosh bang pve skils give you. I love playing cop sometimes. so it's not a i'm so leet I dont want anyone else to follow me kinda thing. I just would not have posted if it was,

I did'nt want to spew out a whole load of in game credentials, but it does help people understand that it's not about wanting to deny people fun or their shiny statues.

It's just not. If it's lead people to think this of me, then i'm sorry for my poor articulation of things. I've played the majority of my time making sure unwanted professions can get a boost, showing things can be done with a mesmer, or a Rit or an assasin for example.

What it is, is that I hate to see people excluded from things. I've lost count we've helped out people who have not been able to get teams because they were the wrong profession or had the wrong title. I hate it, just hate it.

And yet what we are seeing here is a worse exclusion, one based on grind, not necssarily skill, of how much cash you have rather than how you play.

Any change, that breaks these exclusions down forever is fine by me

bhavv · Apr 14, 2008, 08:25 PM // 20:25

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Originally Posted by JASON626

Anet add an update to hard mode: No elite PVE skills allowed gogo :P

Fix'd

...............

Res Ipsi · Apr 14, 2008, 08:26 PM // 20:26

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Originally Posted by Angelina Collins

It's people like you who are the first to use hacks to gain an advantage, then once you are umber powerful, frown on all those after you who do the same as you.

Your idea is the worst idea I have ever heard to date. Balance is what destroyed GW in the first place. Greed is the second thing that has destroyed GW. For once I would like to hear an idea that benifits the game for all, and not just the eleteist, greedy, ignorant players.

Wow, that came out of left field. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
I like the PvE skills as they are, and have no objections to others using them. I'm not keen on using UB myself, but am glad I have the option of using it when the mood strikes. I found that some PvE skills (CoP, PI in particular) actually made playing my mesmer more enjoyable - she's actually invited to join pugs. I still have the option to leave them off my skill bar if I want the added challenge, but the game is 3 years old, and there is little challenge left anyway.
/not signed

Savio · Apr 14, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

I don't get how this change is supposed to seriously discourage people from using PvE skills or consumables. The best solution would be to create areas in which not everyone can succeed (that is, no PvE skills or consumables, plus better AI), but we know how the general playerbase and Arenanet feel about that.

Tyla · Apr 14, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by mHtt

I have a feeling that 90% of anti-ursan argument are from people who I think are too lazy themselves to actually explore what the game REALLY has to offer/rank up in norn, and need an easy target for why they're still poor!

I fail to see the logic here.
You say the "Ursan-bashers" are lazy, yet you're going for the easier way past the game?
You're also forgetting that the PvP side is what the game REALLY has to offer. The PvE side is just the priliminaries, so to speak.

Snow Bunny · Apr 14, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

What's startling in this whole discussion is a general lack of attention to a topic that Racthoh keeps bring up, that is, the poor AI.

Don't any of you play this game to get a challenge from it?

Everytime I see an ele/monk boss, I as the monk prot up my BHA hero, send her in, BHA the caster, and send my H/H team in. Threat gone.

That shouldn't be able to happen. The AI is terrible. If they kept the AI's same HM numbers in terms of stats, but severely overhauled the AI, I'd believe that PvE skills and consumables should be kept as they are. In their current form, they're making PvE so mindless that it goes beyond catering to the 'casual player' and simply rewards a lack of skill.

Konig Des Todes · Apr 14, 2008, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

Azazel, it's refreshing to see someone who can respectfully disagree with an idea and intelligently state why without resorting to the typical "OMG ur an idiot moron!!!!" flame posts.

That is not the responce I expected, seeing how most of my "intelligently stated" arguments are still "you morons" according to the normal responses I get.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

What's startling in this whole discussion is a general lack of attention to a topic that Racthoh keeps bring up, that is, the poor AI.

Don't any of you play this game to get a challenge from it?

1. My lack of attention is due to not having the time to read all of the posts right away.
2. I only want one thing, that is a challenge. Challenges make things fun for me, so go ahead and make the game harder, as long as it is not impossible. Just don't ruin the game for those who like to use certain things, or who are forced to use certain things, such as UB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

The AI is terrible. If they kept the AI's same HM numbers in terms of stats, but severely overhauled the AI, I'd believe that PvE skills and consumables should be kept as they are. In their current form, they're making PvE so mindless that it goes beyond catering to the 'casual player' and simply rewards a lack of skill.

I'd sign to making the AI better to make the PvE game more challenging anytime. The harder *for non-UB teams* places shouldn't get nerfed as much, but the easier places should. Instead of nerfing the overpowered stuff, buff the underpowered stuff a bit more.

the_jos · Apr 14, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

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Originally Posted by Shan

Because for the average player, there is no other choice for high end PvE, buy gwen, farm norn and pay2-8k per run. This just *has* to be wrong.
....
or allowing the PvE game to turn into who can farm the most norn and pay the most for consumbales.

I think we need to seperate the consumables from the skills first.
Consumables can be obtained by all players, either crafting or paying.
Chipping in on a set, usually 2 or 3K/each is not that bad, the area will cover that cost.

And it's not always needed to pay.
We did a FoW with alliance and two pickups and in the end only one player chipped in on my sets (3 total, all mine).
He gave me a stack of feathers since he insisted on paying and those are the hardest to get.
I declined the other alliance player who wanted to pay.
This had nothing to do with my drop from the end chest, I already told them it was voluntary payment.

I don't think chipping in on some sets is that much of a problem.

Fixed builds are, however, I feel that UB is just a replacement for all the other restictive PUG builds.
I recall all the pure Factions eles that were not accepted in Deep because they lacked some elite.
Same problem, own a game and get accepted. Don't have it, too bad or wait for ages.
Nothing changed there but now the expansion is called EotN and not Nightfall.

However, this topic covers more than just EotN.
To run SY/TNtF on your para you need to have two chapters, Factions and Nightfall. And you need to grind for them, specially SY.
But it's not only PvE skills: SF? Nightfall, AP? Factions, Ebon Dust? NF, VwK? Factions. You want to tank on warrior? A lot of builds require Dolyak Sig. Want to buy prophecies? Ineptitude? Same problem.
A lot of the default builds require having all chapters.
So the only discussion would be on the amount of grind that is required to obtain a reasonable level of a certain rank and not the individual skills.

Getting a track like Norn or Vanguard to max is not that easy but doable.
I maxed all 4 tracks with books, dungeons and a couple of Norn runs and wanted to max them anyway regardless of skill benefit.

In my opinion not owning certain skills because you don't have a certain chapter was always a problem and it's not related to EotN.
So the real problem would be the grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mHtt

In stead they blame the OTHER players, who CAN organize a group of like minded people for a fun and effective time.

Creating a PUG with Ursan is not organizing a group!
It's getting some players together, something everyone who can find the local chat option can do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhavv

I dont actually pug, I have played in 2 HM alliances (including the_jos's guild), yet every group created for FoW and UW in these alliances is full ursan and HB monks.
....
This isnt only a problem with FoW and UW. In my last alliance, everytime a group for a vanquish, mission, or dungeon was being formed, it was ALWAYS an Ursan group. All that was required was 5-6 Ursans and 2-3 monks, for just about everything in the game.

Let's get one thing clear.
While I know that FoW and UW required UB a lot of time I think it's not fair to state this was true on all runs. I know we took guildies without UB in our guild groups several times on FoW runs. I can't speak for the other guilds in the alliance, it's their choice.
Also I have hardly seen an Ursan requirement on vanq/mission or NM dungeon in our alliance. If that would become common practice it would be time for me to leave and seek people who share my opinion on that subject.
If players want to use the skill it's fine but don't require it when there is no real need.

Back on subject now

I think excluding players is bad.
Very bad.
I split my guild recently because of an incident which got LotU kicked from SNOW and faced several active players leaving back to the old guild (LotU) because they did not feel at home in SNOW where I rejoined with HML, the new split guild.
One way or the other I was excluding players.
When I would keep HML out of the SNOW alliance I would hurt the players who don't have their friends list filled and are not part of the core guild group.
And by rejoining SNOW I seperated friends. It hurt a lot of players including myself to do this.

However, exclusion works from both sides.
I decided to move back knowing some players were not happy with SNOW.
So in a certain way I pushed them out of the guild.
On the other hand they choose to go back to LotU for their own reasons.
And emotions also played a serious role.

The same is true for the current UB/PvE skill exclusion.
On one side players are forced to play certain builds and use certain consumables.
On the other side it's some players choice not to buy EotN, not to grind the titles and not to use the skills.

A lot of players are not willing to PUG if there isn't some kind of relatively fail-safe way to do things. PvE skills and consumables provide just that.
The average PUG player will always take the least risk with maximum benefit. We can't change that. What you surgest is making the benefit less.
I doubt that's the best solution.
Players just won't team up when the benefit/risk ratio is too low.
They will go solo-farming or something like that when that nets more than doing DoA runs.
It will cause the same abandoned outposts as we've seen before the current UB craze.
Until the next Steel Wall/Trapper/Kaiz/UB build will emerge and start a pull on the area again.

I think he best thing we can do as community is provide an alternative for those who don't want to or can't play certain (PvE) skills or consumables.
Make people aware of alternatives.
Ask A-net to make a week (not just weekend) event with double rewards for players/teams not using PvE skills.
And ask them for better teaming/scheduling options.
Because that's from my perspective the main advantage of UB.
Every non-monk player needs one certain skill, the rest does not really matter.
Compare that to the time it takes to get an organized team together (can easily take 30-45 mins) and you know why UB is the clear winner.

Randvek · Apr 14, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13

I saw a PvE guild recruiting the other day that required R10 Norn and R8 Lightbringer to join. After I got done laughing, it was a little troubling.

Having said that, making PvE skill users (including Signet of Capture) get nothing out of doing anything is bad. The cure can't be worse than the disease, which I believe this solution to be. Save Sunspear Rebirth Signet!

Voltaic Annihilator · Apr 14, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Then theres always one person that will get pissed

You can't see me · Apr 14, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

What's startling in this whole discussion is a general lack of attention to a topic that Racthoh keeps bring up, that is, the poor AI.

Don't any of you play this game to get a challenge from it?

Everytime I see an ele/monk boss, I as the monk prot up my BHA hero, send her in, BHA the caster, and send my H/H team in. Threat gone.

That shouldn't be able to happen. The AI is terrible. If they kept the AI's same HM numbers in terms of stats, but severely overhauled the AI, I'd believe that PvE skills and consumables should be kept as they are. In their current form, they're making PvE so mindless that it goes beyond catering to the 'casual player' and simply rewards a lack of skill.

You bring up excellent points, however, I disagree with the AI change because of the way the game is played.

I'd like to point out the fact that the game does not change in PvE aside from a few missions, which is the sense of killing things over and over. To make money, you must kill things unless you like standing around in Spamadan reading through the muck. In missions, you kill things to complete the mission. In grind titles, Vanquisher, Protector, Gaurdian, Lightbringer, Sunspear, Norn, Asura, Deldrimor, Vanguard, and probably a few others I'm forgetting.

Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy killing things as much as the next person, but Guild Wars forces extremely repetative gameplay for progress. To make money, there's going to be a best selection of ways, of course, killing things, and all those things are done over and over and over. To bring new characters into the game, you play the game over again and over again through the same linear storyline.

My point is that if you make things more difficult, yes, at first the challenge will be rewarding to some at first, but it will wear off. Guild Wars 1 is way single track oriented for a harder AI to have a sustained and lasting element of fun.

People will learn how to beat it the new AI because naturally, human intelligence over AI. They will share the knowledge. The challenge will fade replaced by frustration based upon increased time spent to do repetative tasks.

Don't get me in the wrong context here. Guild Wars 2 does need better AI programming, but Guild Wars 1, in my humble opinion, will lose the element of fun very soon after the new AI is put in, only to be replaced by increased demand on time spent and preparation. If you have a walkthrough to beat something, which, undoubtebly, we will, that's knowledge, and with better AI's, those tricks that the walkthroughs will teach us will become knowledge, and knowledge becomes enough to beat the new AI. Knowledge is not skill. Skill will be required in only the elite areas, which will become more time consuming, and turn away many players that have the skill nescasarry, leaving only those who have the time to spend on it and the skill and the will to do them, leaving a very sparse playerbase to communicate and play with.

Additionally, with harder AI, even with walkthroughs, PuGs will die. I won't lie. I have serious doubts that even with walkthroughs, the majority of the Guild Wars community will be able to deal with it. Grouping will be anything but impossible, and we will see a decline in player activity because of this.

All in all, I feel that judging by the way things are now, and the way things may go, that a harder AI, yes, will reward players who want more of a challenge, but will hurt a lot more players who don't have the time or will to complete things in such a repetative style if they are forced to exert a lot of effort to accomplish them. Effort does not nescasarrily mean fun is present, and effort is what the new AI will mean to 95% of the PvE playerbase. Effort, of course, is bad, and I see the decline in playtime so large that the entire community will be effected by it.

In Guild Wars 2? Yes. A new slate demands a higher bar, but raising the effort standard in Guild Wars 1 will cause a lot of the playerbase to decline in play, meaning less business and money for Arenanet and less people to play with, and less to group with. It comes with the upside that there will be less immature and rude folk spamming in local chat, but it comes with a price I don't think any gaming company is willing to pay.

Age · Apr 14, 2008, 11:08 PM // 23:08

What I would like to see is a PvE skill associated with an attribute instead of a title.I hardly use consumables.

Konig Des Todes · Apr 14, 2008, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

What I would like to see is a PvE skill associated with an attribute instead of a title.I hardly use consumables.

Hmm interesting idea..

Ursan Blessing with.... Strength
Pain inverter with.... Domination
Save Yourselves! with.... Hammer Mastery!

Instead, what I would prefer would be to make the EN PvE skills linked to professions, like the Kurzick/Luxon/Sunspear skills.

Monk In The Box · Apr 14, 2008, 11:27 PM // 23:27

It sounds really good

Darkobra · Apr 14, 2008, 11:35 PM // 23:35

I don't agree with this idea. I hardly see my Air of Superiority as an overpowering skill. A minor heal, double exp, small chance of skills fully being recharged except res signets, conditions removed, it's hardly game breaking.

So why should using this skill cripple my ability to enhance my gameplay in Guild Wars 2? Or any other minor ability, like summoning a Mursaat that will die in one hit.

Nuclfus · Apr 14, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randvek

I saw a PvE guild recruiting the other day that required R10 Norn and R8 Lightbringer to join. After I got done laughing, it was a little troubling.

I think that's just funny. Anyone who would want to join a dumb guild like that deserves it.

TheRaven · Apr 14, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

I never really gave Ursan a second thought until reached DOA on my Ele. I take things slow and easy and savor my journey through the campaigns. As a result, i didn't finish NF until this year.

When I did I was very anxious to explore DOA because I'd heard so many great things about the area. Very challenging. Great loot. It sounded wonderful. I was majorly disappointed to find that my Ele was absolutely not wanted.

I remember one evening in particular. A ranger was in town asking for a group. Someone told him to "go ursan". He said he couldn't. He didn't have GW:EN. Many people in town told him to scram and outright laughed at him. They said he had no right to be in that outpost if he didn't own GW:EN. I'm sure that player felt miserable and A-net probably lost a customer.

I turned to my guild for help getting a party to DOA but no one was really interested in the area. It was old hat to them. One afternoon I saw a guildie on alliance chat ask if anyone wanted to do a doa run and I piped up. Finally!! He said, great, bring Ursan and come. I told him I only had a non-ursan ele there and he made it clear that I was not welcome to join him.

That was the day that I decided I hated Ursan.

Since then I've come to live with it. I ran my warrior through NF and use her to go into the DOA. I can definitely see that it's a lot faster.

As far as the comments along the lines of "make the AI better", I have to disagree. Rachtoch (I hope I spelled it right) I've never met you ingame, but I've read a lot of your posts and can see that you are one of the more talented PvE players in the game, however imo the AI does not need to be better. The AI will never be but so good. It's AI and technology hasn't evolved yet to create a robot that good. If you want a faster, better, stronger opponent, play PvP. The monsters you face there are a much harder challenge!

Savio · Apr 15, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

The AI will never be but so good. It's AI and technology hasn't evolved yet to create a robot that good.

The AI in Guild Wars is nowhere near the limits of AI today. For whatever reason though, Arenanet hasn't put more resources into developing better AI.

Powerful White Man · Apr 15, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Delete Ursan, remove consumables, nerf SY! to +20..40 AL, rework TNtF! completely, CoP needs a second look at - x...80 damage maybe?

Konig Des Todes · Apr 15, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powerful White Man

Delete Ursan, remove consumables, nerf SY! to +20..40 AL, rework TNtF! completely, CoP needs a second look at - x...80 damage maybe?

Do that and you'll have hordes upon hordes of PvEers complaining, mainly to you for coming up with such an extreme idea. Don't change anything, if you don't like it, don't use it, if you must use it, use it and don't like it. Just stop QQ'ing about such stupid things.